Whelp, I blew Charlie's motor (probably) and need some oppopinions

"SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie" (sidewaysondirt) 07/13/2015 at 11:40 • Filed to: aw11, mr2, track day, project car hell

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tl;dr at the bottom

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After 26 years on the road, 220k miles, one year of my ownership, dozens of autocrosses, and one track day, the original, tired, and untouched 4AGE in it finally called it a day (I think). I finally took the MR2 to a proper track day, but apparently it wasn’t quite ready for that. I’m not quite sure what the problem was, but in my first session, it started overheating and cut out a few times, so I pulled into the pits early. I waited for it to cool down, and was planning on doing the next session. The overfill tank was boiling, but this had happened once before, so I wasn’t too terribly worried about it. That time was on a very hot day when it was idling for a very long time between autocross runs. I wasn’t able to recreate it since then, so figured that I just pushed it too hard and decided that I’d take it easier on the next session instead of pushing at 100% the whole time.

For the second session, I kept my eye on the oil pressure and water temperature, and for the most part shifted way earlier. This seemed to be working. The water temperature was hovering a little above where it normally sits, but nothing major. It was maybe about 2/3 up on the gauge while normally it’s sitting at about half. I figured that that was fine, so kept going and just kept my eye on it. Towards the end of the session immediately after I passed the pits, smoke started shooting out of the vents and engine compartment, the temperature needle immediately pegged itself, and the oil pressure dropped. I nursed it back around being careful to stay off of the racing ling and managed to coast back into the pit area where it continued to boil and spit fluid everywhere. This time it looked like the fluid was coming out of the water pump, which had also happened once before when the car was overheated. I wasn’t super worried, but I knew at that point that it wasn’t going back out and that I would be riding home with AAA.

I called AAA a bunch of times, they were unable to find anyone willing to pick me up at the track and drive me threee hours home, so fed up I decided to see if I could nurse it at least part of the way home so that hopefully the next time I call I’ll be in a more populated area. I tried starting it, but had no luck. It almost sounded like the starter was going bad or there wasn’t enough juice to crank it, which should have been a red flag, but I wasn’t thinking very clearly at this point. The track day was long over and the track was closing up, so I asked them to tow me out to the front gate to hopefully continue waiting for a tow truck. While being towed, I decided to try force starting it by bump starting it. It worked, but the engine sounded really, really bad. I said “fuck it” because I really, really wanted to just go home at that point. I was going to take my chances and see how far the car would take me.

The problems started pretty quickly. It was overheating again within a few miles even though I was now driving in a straight line in fifth gear at about 2500 RPMs, so I knew that the car was pretty royally fucked. Unfortunately, the track is in the middle of nowhere, so I didn’t want to just stop. What was I going to tell the tow truck driver? “Umm, I don’t have an adddress, but I’m between some of the construction barriers on Bee Line Highway on the 30 mile stratch between Jupiter and Indiantown.” Yeah, that wasn’t going to happen. Nope, I just had to keep going.

Many nerve-racking miles later, I made it to Indiantown. The engine finally died intirely just within sight of the first gas station, so I coasted in there billowing even more smoke than before. I opened the engine lid to find that some of the tape on parts of the engine had managed to catch on fire because of how hot the clock was, and steam was coming from every place that it shouldn’t be coming from. It was coming out of the valve covers, the spark plug holes, the side of the engine.... Pretty much if there’s a gasket there, steam was coming out. The distributor cap started to melt because of the heat. I called AA again, had better luck, and eventually got it home where it’s now sitting dejected in the street.

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The track I went to is Palm Beach International Circuit. It’s on kind of a narrow plot of land, so alot of the turns are long and slow. Basically, there are four turns that are about 180 degrees. Three of the four are right handers and the other is a left. Here’s a photo.

What I think might have been part of the problem is the number of long right handers. The 4AGE in the MR2 has a transaxle setup identical to that of a FWD car except at the back and the oil pickup location is on the right hand side of the engine. I do not have additional baffles installed in the oil pan, and I can’t help but wonder if there were problems with oil starvation that caused everything else to go to hell. I also can’t help but wonder what to do now. Obviously, alot of damage was done. The question is whether it’s worth it to even look at the original engine, or if I should just spring for a silvertop swap. I get the feeling that if the engine’s savable at all, it will need a total rebuild, which might end up being more expensive than just doing a swap, and that’s assuming that I didn’t damage the block and internals. What do people with better mechanical knowledge than me think? Would you consider steam and oil shooting out of pretty much every gasket to be that the engine’s completely shot? If so, is it worth even keeping to try to rebuild myself on my own time, or do you think that I now have a decorative engine block sitting in my car?

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I (probably) blew the engine in my MR2 because of oil starvation and then overheating it like a dumbass. Think it’s completely blown, should I bother attempting a rebuild, or silvertop swap?

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 07/13/2015 at 11:46

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The slightly over-temp, and then BAM overheat sounds kind of like low coolant. Any chance it had air pockets after the first overheat? Not that it matters now, it sure sounds like you’ve got a paperweight.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 07/13/2015 at 11:50

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It’s possible. The levels looked good before my second run, but I didn’t try running it through a whole cycle to bleed it.

HammerheadFistpunch > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 07/13/2015 at 11:53

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1mz swap

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > HammerheadFistpunch 07/13/2015 at 11:57

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Too heavy and too much work. If I were going to do something more difficult than a silvertop, it would be a 2zz or honda swap.

HammerheadFistpunch > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 07/13/2015 at 11:59

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why no blacktop 3sge?

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 07/13/2015 at 12:00

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I also wonder if you’ve got rotor degradation on your water pump. A rotor that’s developed slip or lost most of its vanes can create overheating when the engine is running high-stress or low-circulation, as can a clogged radiator, etc.

kanadanmajava1 > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 07/13/2015 at 12:00

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If I had to guess I would say that your water pump had failed and the coolant wasn’t circulation anymore. At he point that the starter couldn’t start the engine hints that the pistons had jammed after severe overheating. You managed to brake them free but the cylinder liners have to have received some damage.

My friend had a Fiat Punto that had driven after the cooling system failed until it didn’t move anymore. The final failure that stopped the engine was the plastic intake manifold that had melted and finally stalled the engine.

The cylinder head had been bent due the heat but he still decided to fix it as the rotating parts were still ok. He machined the head straight but it was still so bent that you couldn’t even turn the camshaft with hands. After he got it bolted back together it again worked and he of course sold it away really quickly.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > kanadanmajava1 07/13/2015 at 12:04

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You’ve accidentally responded to me instead of the OP, but I agree. Water pump failure is very definitely a suspect. I had an impeller come partly loose on my Rover, and it caused no end of ghosting overheat/no overheat intermittent problems.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > HammerheadFistpunch 07/13/2015 at 12:09

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Too many moneys , similar weight, no advantage over a 2ZZ.

EDIT - Turns out they’re cheaper than I thought. Still erring on te side of simplicity, but it might not be a bad idea.

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 07/13/2015 at 12:11

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Sounds like a job for ‘BUSA MOTOR!!!

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 07/13/2015 at 12:11

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Yeah, I was wondering the same thing or if the thermostat failed or something. It was leaking from the water pump badly the second time I came in, but that has happened before. The thing has 220k miles on it and still has the original pump, thermostat, and radiator. It could have been any of them.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > kanadanmajava1 07/13/2015 at 12:12

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Yep, that sounds exactly like my problem. Yay, my engine’s fucked.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero 07/13/2015 at 12:13

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...with a turbo!

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 07/13/2015 at 12:15

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I like where your head is at haha

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > kanadanmajava1 07/13/2015 at 12:16

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Think that oil starvation could have led to the problems at all, or am I just being too worried about that? The first overheat seemed to happen way too soon after getting out on track for it to be only a cooling issue.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 07/13/2015 at 12:20

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Leaking from the water pump when hot generally means enough motion in the bushing/etc. that it hasn’t been good for the seal. Probably. If a water pump goes bad slowly it’s usually dripping a bit first and getting worse, though an EPIC WATER PUMP FAILURE can mean the whole thing disintegrating due to antifreeze not being a good lubricant. If the bushing/whatever went bad enough, it’s possible the impeller has rubbed its blades off or sheared whatever locks it to its shaft - both would cause failure to pump. I kind of want to see what the gizzards look like now.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 07/13/2015 at 12:25

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I’m going to take it apart once I get the engine out and can post some pics, but it probably won’t be for a little while before I get to that.

G_Body_Man: Sponsored by the number 3 > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 07/13/2015 at 12:52

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If it were a Fiero, I would say LZ9 time.

As it is an MR2, I'd say 2ZZ swap.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > G_Body_Man: Sponsored by the number 3 07/13/2015 at 12:56

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Lol, I had to look up the LZ9. I wasn’t aware that GM ever build a “high value” engine. I guess it’s sort of like when they made their “high tech” engine with throttle body fuel injection. Yep, I want a 2zz. I just don’t know if I want to deal with the trouble and cost of it, so I’m thinking about going silvertop.

G_Body_Man: Sponsored by the number 3 > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 07/13/2015 at 12:58

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Silvertop is always an option. Just to get your mind going, an LZ9 drops straight into a Fiero, Cavalier, or Cimmaron. 240HP, too.

Nonster > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 07/13/2015 at 13:40

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Sorry to hear that man. I had a similar, albeit, less dramatic experience with my AW11. Mine started overheating after an autocross and I eventually swapped in a Blacktop. Since you kept driving it, it’ll probably need a full rebuild. You might be able to patch it back together with a new waterpump, thermostat, headgasket, etc. but at 220k its time for a refresh.

This part is important; Since you autocross, keep your class in mind. My 20 valve motor (or any engine swap) bumped me from STS to SSM. The AW11 is not competitive in SSM. I’m up against C5 Z06’s, turbo’d Elise’s, heavily modified SW20 MR2’s all on full slicks. I’m sure I can close the gap, but at minimum it would probably require coilovers, massive race slicks, weight reduction, and a turbo for the blacktop. I’m probably gonna go for it just because I’m stubborn and nobody else runs AW11 in SSM and I like to be different.

That said, I absolutely love the Blacktop 20 valve. It’s a sweet little motor that loves to rev. Personally I think if you’re gonna bother with a 20v swap, go for the blacktop. It makes a little more power and its a MAP based ECU instead of the AFM style that the silvertop uses.

If you decide to do the 20v swap and have any questions let me know! I’d be happy to help

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Nonster 07/13/2015 at 13:43

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I’m already running in a modified class because my car is stripped, so I’m not too worried about classing. I’m already woefully outclassed in DM where I am, and once you get into modified classes it’s more about weight and displacement. Displacement and weight end up being the same, so I’ll still be in DM even with a swap. I think that the 2zz swap will leave me in DM as well, but I’d have to look that up. I think DM is for up to 1800.

Nonster > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 07/13/2015 at 14:01

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Gotcha, what about running in DP or CSP? I haven’t read the rules in detail lately, but I’m pretty sure you can be stripped out in those classes too. Several guys on the MR2 forums run AW11’s in DP with good results.

I don’t know if any cars are running in those classes where you’re at, but I’d imagine you’d be more competitive there.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Nonster 07/13/2015 at 14:11

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Yeah, I could do DP, but there’s no one else at my local who runs DP. There are a couple of DM guys including a guy with a very, very stripped AW11 that I’m competitive with, so I stay there. CSP doesn’t allow for stripped interiors, which is dumb (stupid, stupid dumb), but I don’t think it’s very enforced judging by the number of Miata guys running stripped. The SCCA really needs to get rid of the stripped rule or open it up. Not every stripped car is a mega-bucks prepped racer. My car is 26 years old, the carpet was moldy, and half of the trim pieces were broken or barely hanging on in the first place so now it’s gone. I don’t think I saved enough weight to make a substantial difference, but now I’m in a prepared or modified class because of it.

kanadanmajava1 > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 07/13/2015 at 14:32

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Oil starvation issues usually cause bearing failures and the engine starts knocking. Engine should give up in other way before it can overheat due the added friction.

I have heard three different water pump failures.
-Shaft detaches from the impeller
-Blades rust or tear away from the impeller
-After the first overheating a plastic impeller can melt